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Prior to NGI, I had like over 70 million downloads on other apps that I had built over the course of the beginning of my career. And I think that opportunity is still very much open.
At some point, there will be a very successful crypto game. I think Vault kind of wanting it to happen.
People want it. It's just no one's packaged it right.
If you were
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currently at 10K MR with an app, you want to really scale and you have, let's say, like a $10,000 budget, what would you do? good amount of that money should be put towards.
Today we're doing a deep dive with one of the most prolific app builders of all time. He's built apps like NGL and Bags.
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Over the years, these have done insane numbers. Hundreds of millions of downloads, 8 figures revenue, all while staying extremely profitable.
This is none other than Hunter Isacson. I've seen some people criticize mass virality for consumer apps.
The beauty of NGL is it's like a really tight viral loop. We
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found that a lot of people that churned out of the product ended up coming back in. He's done a few other podcasts and I've watched some of them, but what makes this one special is we got super tactical and as actionable as possible.
I asked him to go into the nitty-gritty details of exactly what strategies he's using to go viral and make money with
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his apps. He showed me all his actual Figma files of all his app screens.
And towards the end, I asked him pretty deep questions about how he would use the same strategies today with the current trends. Let's get right into it.
How's NGL doing? It's doing great.
3 years later, still doing great. We have 150 million monthly
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active users on the product, which is way more than I ever expected to be honest with you. Yeah, it's done very, very well.
That's awesome. What do you think it takes to be good at viral consumer apps?
Could you think of one thing? I think like knowing how human beings act when they're put in like a group
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scenario, right? Understanding group think, understanding why people do what they do.
I think that's why I've been successful in social because I'm really good at understanding like when a person looks at a screen, when they look at anything, what are they going to feel and then how do those emotions dictate
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the the action that we're requesting them to do. That's awesome.
Can you just walk through the journey of NGL a little bit for people who don't know yet? Yeah, for sure.
We started the company right when Instagram released the link feature for everybody. It used to be that you could only post links if you
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had 10,000 followers. So, you know, only people that were influencers basically could ever chill anything on their story.
So, they changed this at the end of October of 2021. And that's literally right when we started building the app.
Like the second that we saw this, myself and a few friends of mine, we got a Zoom
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call on Halloween and we were like, we need to build a product for this. What's the most viral thing we can think of?
And we're like, let's build an anonymous messaging platform on top of Instagram. The consumer world is so small.
We thought everyone was going to do this. We thought this was going to be like the number one thing people were going to build.
So our focus was like how do we
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build this in like as fast as possible. We built the app in about a month, but then it was like 6 months of nobody using it.
So it's like our assumption that everybody saw the opportunity was like so wrong. No one cloned us until after we went viral.
That 6 months was very hard. We tried a lot of different
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things. You know, we rebranded the app first just designed wise.
Then I changed the name. I came up with the name NGL.
We got a sick domain ngl.link and we basically spent money purely on how to activate the graph. So we were like
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testing here and there influencers, you know, like $100 here, $100 there, paying someone to post the Instagram story, you know, Tik Toks, just trying things. About 4 months into the sixmonth period, we had that first like tiny little blip,
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like very small, and it was from an influencer who we paid to post the link. She activated a school on the other side of the world.
Then it spread and infected, you know, the other schools in the area, but it didn't expand to another country. It kind of just stayed in this graph.
So, we realized that the
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problem was this was like more of a lower income country. So, we were like, well, we got to build Android.
So, we built Android very quickly. This is now May of 2022.
The second we finished Android, we then did another round of marketing and it was one Tik Tok that
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went viral and then that was it. It activated everybody and took over the world over the next week.
What was that Tik Tok? It's a Tik Tok of a girl and she's like showing one of her NGL messages.
Someone said, "Oh, I was with your boyfriend last night or your boyfriend said this about you." And it
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was like the girl like, you know, get a hint on who sent me the message. Right.
So, it was kind of like one of those really funny like gotcha type Tik Toks and it blew up. It got like a million views very quickly.
That's crazy. What was the hook of that video?
It sounds kind of similar to stuff that goes viral today. It was
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really like a controversial crazy message to get from someone, you know. So, it was like we tried this with a bunch of different message texts, you know, just like funny, controversial stuff, edgy that just would catch your eye when you were like scrolling TikTok.
And then we always kind of related it back into the platform of like, oh, you
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can get so many messages from people and yeah, you might be able to like potentially find out who sent the message super excited like, oh, I'm going to download that. And that's what activated like our first thousand users in one day was from that Tik Tok.
I've seen some people criticize like mass virality on Tik Tok like for consumer
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apps and they say like even if you get a bunch of users they'll turn out. So, but it seems like that wasn't the case for you guys.
How did you like handle the virality and actually take advantage of it? The beauty of NGL is it's like a really tight viral loop.
We found that a lot of people that turned out of the product ended up coming back in because their
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friends would still post NGL links. You know, in some countries it's like every teenager, you know, all the 17, 18, 19 year olds, right?
all those people that are in like that that high school college era, it's their link in bio. If you turn out, you're going to ultimately come back in because you're going to see
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your friend post their link. Maybe it'll be in their bio.
You'll send them a message and they'll realize, "Oh, wait. I kind of want to do this now, too." So, it had churn for sure, but it also had this like very high reddownload rate, which I think is what's allowed it to continue to be so popular today.
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That's interesting. Yeah.
So, it really became a habit and part of people's core day-to-day, but then also you got that real estate which is the link in bio. This is consumer social like people are interacting with each other, but you guys are also monetized.
So, can you talk about the the revenue side of
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things? Yeah, for sure.
I mean, the revenue is done very well. It's a multi-8 figure a year business.
I think the the revenue is primarily it's just derived through weekly subscription in different countries. It's priced differently depending on the region and depending on the GDP per capita of that country.
So, it's always like a low impulse buy. You
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know, anywhere between a dollar and $7. So, it's pretty cheap.
And I'd say a very small percentage of our downloads actually monetized. It's primarily used as a free product.
It's really only for like power users that want, you know, to
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see more insights about who's sending them their messages or viewing their profile or they want to, you know, post different, you know, we call them different link games that we have. But it's primarily a free product.
It's just because of the volume of users, we've been able to generate significant
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revenue just by taking a very small percentage of those users and moving them to paid. I feel like there's two types of consumer startups.
There's like pure consumer social like Facebook, Instagram, and they monetize with ads cuz they have billions of users. And then there's single player utility apps,
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a lot of the AI apps that you see these days like GPT rappers. But then you guys are kind of in the middle where you're you're consumer social but you're also monetized.
I'm curious like so you started in 2021 so you've had four years to build this company. Do you think that this genre of do a mass consumer kind of
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social product monetized? Absolutely.
I think the opportunity is still there. I think everything that I've done in social that's been successful have been things that are built on top of existing networks.
So I did this previously before NGL. Prior to NGL, I had like over 70 million downloads on other apps
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that I had built over the course of the beginning of my career. And I think that opportunity is still very much open.
I think it comes down to where you're targeting for the graph, right? We target Instagram, you could target Snapchat, you could target X, you could target, you know, Facebook and, you know, go for the the 45-year-old moms,
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right? It doesn't really matter.
I do think that you can still build consumer products and you can monetize them in a simple way and grow them on the backs of these like behemoth networks. That's interesting.
Do you think you're essentially competing with the big platforms? You're getting attention from
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them on the platform and then you're pulling them off the platform and I guess augmenting their experience with Instagram or whatever it is, but do you feel that you're sort of at odds with them? It doesn't compete with the big networks.
I think it does enhance or augment the experience of using it.
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That's a great way to put it. Like you can use Instagram the exact same way, but you just tap this link.
It opens inside of Instagram. your experience is only slightly interrupted from scrolling and then you can very quickly either go and do it yourself, right, by downloading the app or you just close it
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and go to the next story, right, and just kind of on. So, it's like a lightweight interruption to the flow, but it's very easy to like bypass it or just go through the flow.
It's not going to be like a 10-minute funnel. Sorry, very quick interruption.
Hunter is a member of Consumer Club. It's an online
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community for app founders to meet each other. You should apply to join consumer club and meet Hunter inside.
This pod is also sponsored by Superwwell. Thanks so much Superwwell for helping put this together.
The home screen, it's a two-step copy link, then share. When you tap share,
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you're given this screen. These are animated gifts.
And then it tells you, you know, click the sticker button, click the link button, you know, add the link to your story, and then frame the link. Right?
That was the whole concept. If you just post it with our flow like this, we will automatically copy this
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asset. We'll pull your profile picture and we'll put it in here and make it look really nice and then you tap it.
It opens up a window. You can tap the dice.
You'll get ideas if you don't know what to tell people what to say. There's a persistent download button at the bottom.
And then once you send it, we
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then tell you to get your own messages or you can just go back and send another one. It's pretty straightforward.
And then it looks like this when you get them on the app and you can tap it here and then you can either get a hint which we can reveal like type of phone the user has or the rough location or you
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can reply and reply basically just copies it onto your story and then you can respond to it. What I really love about this is like just the copywriting of get your own messages.
When you think about it, the result of that call to action, you sell the end result, right? Which is what
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they'll get if they actually do follow the steps. And then once they're hooked, they get into the flow and then they download the app and they follow the instructions.
You're almost like leading with, oh, this is super easy. You're just going to get your own messages.
And then you kind of have to educate them as you go. 100%.
And it's way easier to get a
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download by saying get your own messages than saying, hey, download this app. And that's why we we have like a very very it's still a very very high ratio of like new users hitting this screen and immediately going to the app store and downloading it.
And the beauty of this app is, you know, our onboarding 15, 20
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seconds, right? It's like very quickly we bring you and and drop you onto this screen right here.
A big lesson I learned with apps is just how do you make it like one flow, one funnel, and don't over complicate it and just focus on like a northstar metric. In the case of NGL, our northstar metric was like
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how many people are posting the link and then they're posting like at least two replies. That's so interesting.
So I feel like nailing that first kind of core set of users is really important. Another question I had is this is not a completely new invention like there's
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anonymous messaging app came before this but did not take advantage of this exact platform shift that you talked about which is the link in Instagram story. I'm curious if is this the way that you think of products in general like tying an existing concept with a new platform
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arbitrage? Is that like a way to always think about startups or are there other frameworks that you think about starting products?
That's definitely a good framework I would say like find existing things that happen on other networks or other distribution mechanisms and just switch the distribution mechanism and improve the product to a certain degree
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and and you're right you know before NGL there's YOLO yik asm we could go all the way back I mean formspring like this is a behavior on the internet that's existed for a long time I do think that the reason NGL went as big as it did and has more downloads than all of those apps is because we use the biggest
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distribution graph of all which is the Instagram graph. That's why it did so well.
But NGL also is huge on other platforms, too. Twitter, it's big on WhatsApp.
Like, it's big across the board, I think, also because a lot of these anonymous apps have over complicated them after they were
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successful, right? They added feeds and they added complicated profile tools and like if you look at NGL today and you look at NGL when it went viral, it's very, very similar.
It's not changed to a large order of magnitude. I'd say that it's more been optimized and refined and
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that we found ways to just like make the product cooler and more fun and more engaging, but we didn't, you know, add multiple more tabs and, you know, make it super confusing. Like, it stayed relatively the same.
I like how you said distribution graph. So when when people think of
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distribution graphs and you know if someone wants to build a startup that uses the same framework and they're thinking about the major distribution graphs there's like you said Twitter X, Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, maybe YouTube. Do you think that there's an underutilized or almost like an an
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arbitrage opportunity looking at smaller graphs that are still powerful? Is there anything like that that you're noticing these days?
I I mean there's definitely an opportunity there for sure. I think I'm kind of seeing an emergence of more of these smaller graph type apps, right?
Like I'm seeing these. I do think there's an
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opportunity there for sure. But I also think that like you could build a super viral experience, put it on Twitter and it will work, right?
Like you don't have to go and only find the smaller graphs and the newer apps or like the very like niche communities. You could still use a big platform and just, you know, have a
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a good viral loop and it will work. This is the OG right here.
This is what started it all. This app actually never made it to the app store, which is funny.
It died in test flight. It took two and a half years to build this app.
The general concept of this one, I was seeing all these influencers blow up on
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social media and I was seeing that a lot of them like didn't post interesting content. So, I wanted to figure out a way to like kind of create a different graph where the cooler things you do and the more times you hang out with your friends, like the more times people see your content to encourage like viral moments.
Extremely hard problem to solve. And I solved it in an even more
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difficult problem. The UI is very confusing.
Even though this app failed, I just loved the process of designing it so much that I realized that like this is what I should be doing with my life. But yeah, this was a spectacular failure.
Good lessons learned though. I started this app though in 2017.
So it
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took 2 and 1/2 years just to like go through multiple iterations, different designs, paid a development agency. And this one I fully sunset in 2020.
And then I built this one next. This is Zoom University.
We had the idea of like let's build a double dating app for
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college kids and it started with it was like we literally was like a meme because like Zoom University was a meme at the time and we were like let's just like embrace the meme. So we like went on meme pages and posted content and just like funny stuff.
What it did is it like just got everybody excited about it
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and we had a weight list of like 40,000 people and it was a 7:1 girl to guy ratio which is in dating is unheard of. And that was a a real lesson I learned of like women will do things because they're really comfortable that they're with another woman.
That's what made it
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so great is cuz like if you're a young girl, you don't want to go on like a video chat app and talk to some random guy. Like that's kind of uncomfortable.
But if you had your best friend with you and you're going to get two guys that come in and we had like, as you can see, there was like a little group chat and then a private chat. You could open
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these up and then the girls will say, "Oh, these guys are weird. Let's leave." And then both people would have to match or both people would have to skip.
It made it like this cool experience of like quadruple opt-in basically like double opt-in on both sides. And then if you matched, you'd be thrown into a group chat and you would just save
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everybody's profile pictures and you guys could just like give each other your Instagrams, Snapchats, whatever. This one did I want to say somewhere like maybe a couple hundred thousand downloads, but it went top 10 in the app store in the social category.
I remember the Zoom University Facebook
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group. Did you guys own that?
I'd have to ask my buddy Danny, but I know we were in every single Facebook group for every college. The V1 of this app was actually done over Zoom, which was funny.
Like sending meeting codes and then we built this app very, very quickly. That's wild.
I like the private
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chat and then the public chat. It definitely solves that problem.
Like the next one I built did 70 million downloads. This is Wink.
Premise behind it originally was that we wanted to make it really easy for people to exchange Snapchats with each other. all these young people are bored and they're at
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home and it's locked down and Snapchat doesn't have a good social graph for like friend suggestions. So, we kind of just had the idea, let's build like a really simple way to just like swipe on people like Tinder and instead of adding them on the app, it would just add them on Snapchat.
This is another one that I
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built. This was I built in the same era as Wink.
The idea here was we wanted to create a different way where people could make friends. I designed these games myself and you know we had it where like you would just tap on a game or you tap this button it would randomly match you.
This was a cool animation
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showing like people that were in games and then you had a uh a microphone option here. So you'd be on a voice chat with the other person so you could just talk to them while you're flicking a little soccer game or playing trivia and then when you would win either could do a rematch or you could you know go play
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with somebody else. We had a leaderboard.
Some people would connect their Snapchats so you could add people there. We had a rewards section at one point which was pretty cool.
Then we had like the profile. So very simple app.
This app had like some of the highest average time spent of any app I've ever
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built. Close to an hour per user.
I feel like games PvP with real money is just such an insane concept. It combines the hourlong retention of gaming.
What's your take on crypto with PVP games? Will happen.
It's a question of when. A lot
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of the people have tried many years at this point, but I'd say that if you're going to build a crypto app is a whole other beast than anything else. At some point there will be a very successful crypto game.
I think we've all kind of been wanting it to happen since especially since last cycle, the 2021 cycle and we had like the Axi Infinities
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of the World and all these other games. Like people want it, it's just no one's packaged it right.
I think it comes down to just building a really good product. Sometimes when your focus is on the money aspect, you don't focus as much on the actual player and the app experience
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and the social graph. It's also very very hard to acquire customers in gaming.
It's a very competitive space. Most of it is run by paid.
So if you're a small guy and you're starting out, games is not where you start. It's double hard.
It's like you have to make a fun game that retains users for an
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hour plus. That's so hard.
and then acquiring the users. It's so competitive because all these mobile gaming companies have so much money to burn out ads.
I built a lot of other things that were like different type apps. So like this one for example, I just love the design of this one.
The UX is really clean. And this was like a meditation/mindfulness
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app that basically like allows you to scroll through quotes and then you could change like the font and like the colors and you could share the quotes on your Instagram or Snapchat or over text. And we had like sleep sounds and like frequencies that you could play.
I built this with my first mentor cuz he wanted
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the app. So, we kind of built this for ourselves.
But, I'm really glad I did it. I built something totally outside of my comfort zone.
It looks just like some of the other like sleep sounds or meditation apps, like very in the niche for sure. And then this was another one I built.
This was like a hybrid web app
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plus Instagram story. So, we kind of built this very lightweight video product where you would post like a preview and then you post a link.
People would tap the link and then it would open this and you'd get a ticket. This was an animation that looked really sick.
And then it would you say, "Welcome to PopStream." This was a
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waiting room and you would basically see where you are in the line and how many people are waiting. This was kind of the the other version, right?
If you were the creator, you would see like how do you get someone to join and we kind of explain it, show you your link. When somebody did join your call, it would do
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a countdown. You would be facetiming with the celebrity and it would show you a time here and there was like a little ad time indicator when it got low.
And at the end, you would enter your email address and we would just email you a video of your meet and greet with that influencer/ celebrity. It did very well
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in the early tests that we kind of did for it. But I think the reason it didn't work is because at the time influencer pricing was crazy high.
Getting a top tier influencer to just post a link was like 20 grand. So the economics just didn't make sense.
And so we ended up
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sunsetting this out as well. When you look at bags, this is bags today.
Okay, this is what it looks like. These are all like influencers basically crypto influencers.
You know, Cupsy for example is a you know influencer or crypto. You basically can see what they're buying in real time.
You get to see like what's the market cap of the token. Are they,
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you know, up or down? What's the percentage?
And then you just tap this button right here to quick buy it and it'll buy the token immediately. The purpose of the screen was to solve the discovery problem of tokens in crypto.
We also have a group chat screen so tokens can create their own communities and put them on bags where we have
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integrated trading inside of the chats versus Telegram where like you got to have a bot and you got to like type slashstart slashby. We kind of just built chats inside of a native trading product and there's like a you know trending search screen where you can see all the tokens that are doing well and
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you see popular tokens and here's like our wallet. The idea really was just like to make a wallet look not like a typical wallet.
So I had the idea of like creating a a credit card type experience. Yeah.
You can send to any wallet or any person on the app by username. You can deposit with Apple Pay
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which is like yeah right here you pause Apple Pay or crypto. When you tap on a token you know looks like this.
And you can do balances. You can max sell it.
You see your position all the stats. The about section for the token holders activity.
And then there's like this is
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you know persistent sticky on the bottom so you could quick buy it. So very different product than the other one.
Yeah, I love this. It's just everything like the discovery, the group chats.
Group chats are powerful cuz you're like the existing behaviors like the influencers talk to their followers about coins and now that's happening in
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the group chat. And then buy coins with Apple Pay is also kind of insane.
Like I don't think that was possible before, right? That's like a new thing.
This is a new thing. We integrate with Moonay.
That's our main provider for this and they help us on ramp through Apple Pay. And I think it'll only get
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better. The limits will only get higher.
I guess my main question is how does this make money? So, it makes money off of transaction volume whenever there's a big spike in onchain volume.
We make a a 1% fee on transactions and then we pass back the majority of that fee to your friend who
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invited you to the app. Or if you're in a group chat, someone posts a token, you buy it from them, then they'll earn some of that commission as well.
And then we also have a token launchpad product where you can create your own coin, launch it. Our spin on it though is we do a 1% royalty.
Not just earning on the LP transaction, actually earning like on
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every single trade. You could run up $2 million of volume and you'll make $20,000 really easily, really fast.
And we're also building like pretty crazy things I can't talk about right now, but it will make it even better. I wanted to ask you about a very specific idea, and
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I want to talk about a specific app and just get your take on it. This is a recipe sharing app.
Basically, you scroll through Instagram. There's a share button that pops up.
When you click share, the recipe icon, like the app icon is right there, and you can share it to the recipe app. The recipe
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app scans the video, like the Tik Tok or the Instagram, and then it generates a recipe with all the ingredients and the quantities from the video itself. Most app developers aren't really thinking about the share menu as a piece of real estate, but it is.
One interesting thing
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is also that it's not actually that easy to get your app onto the share menu. Once it's there, it looks good, but to get it there, it takes, I think, three or four taps total.
To scroll over, tap more and then edit, add, and then scroll and drag it up to the first position and
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then click done. And then now it's there forever.
Every time you scroll on Instagram, that app is going to be there. So, I don't I just wanted your take on this cuz I feel like you could probably build recipe for other categories.
You're scrolling Instagram for travel videos and you want to, you know, extract travel plans and you can
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monetize probably a lot more heavily than in the food category. What do you think about the Instagram share menu?
I actually advised a company that did this in a different space that a good friend of mine built. The app is called Fade.
Save and organize videos from anywhere. So, the idea really was like so many times on Tik Tok and you like a
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video, then you go back to look at your likes and the video's gone. It's been deleted.
there was a major amount of videos that were getting wiped off the internet that you just couldn't find anymore. This app did very well.
It blew up. I think it went close to number one and it had the same thing where like you would tap share, tap more, scroll down
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to faves, and it would open it. We'd have a really cool experience there.
The recipe faves playbook is definitely a good playbook. If the users understand the value of the product, like they really get the value and why it's so important, then you could put a multi-step tutorial in front of them.
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That's what worked for NGL. Like they knew the value of NGL because they saw their friends get messages.
So when they got to the app and then they tap share and it's four steps, they don't really care cuz they've kind of already been sold this concept of like what they're getting. So I think if you can sell them
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effectively in the beginning, then sure, stick up a tutorial and just make it simple to follow and measure and see how many people fall out of the flow. Idea validated.
Someone go build this and then get advised by Hunter. I have another idea I want to get your take on.
Did you know that there are iOS Safari
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extensions? Everyone thinks of Chrome extensions as things on desktop.
You know, Honey is probably like one of the biggest examples or Adlock. There's also like Adblock on Safari mobile, which is kind of crazy.
One app I saw recently is Tin. It's kind of like Honey.
It's save
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coupons on Safari mobile. And I think they make money probably with deals with these merchants.
Basically, my app idea is you put credit card recommendations at checkout. So, you route people to use the best credit cards that will give them the best rewards of their own credit cards, but then if there's a
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credit card that would actually get them more rewards, you can suggest that to them and these credit card companies will pay you like up to $500 per person that you refer. Do you think that kind of weird niche markets like this are worth looking at?
I actually advise another company that does this. Once you get over the hump of the user education,
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I think it works really well. As long as the app is more designed to be in the background, I think this stuff could work.
Once again, you have to sell the user cuz it's like, how do you install it? You know, this is now five steps, right?
Six steps with the completion. So, that's a lot.
And I think that it really only works if prior to that
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tutorial, the user's fully sold and they're just bought in and they're like, "Yep, I get it. I need this." That's the hard part at setting.
And you have to do that somehow with viral Tik Toks ads. Would you add a social element to this?
I always like adding social elements. I love adding, you know, invite screens,
27:18
forcing users to share. I think it's a great way to get stamp of approval from someone.
If you text your friend an app or you post an app on your story, for example, it's like an endorsement. I'm a big fan of that.
I put that in every product. There's always, you know, easy ways to invite people as long as it
27:34
actually makes sense. If you were currently at 10K MR with an app, you want to really scale.
So, you kind of have some product market fit and you have, let's say, like a $10,000 budget, what would you do? Like, what are the channels that you think are interesting right now?
Curious if you have a take on
27:50
that. So, you're a 10,000 MR and you want to scale.
What do you do with the 10,000? Let's say you have 20K a month budget actually.
Okay. 20K a month.
Good amount of that money should be put towards either UGC with influencers or ads. But what I would do is I would break it up into like experiments,
28:05
right? So you experiment what cohort came from which ad or which Tik Tok video and then constantly be adapting the formats and adapting it but doing smaller tests, right?
Don't spend all the money on like, you know, one specific creative. I would just test like a dozen of them.
I'd really focus
28:22
on like productled growth. How do you use those ads in the in the UGC to just bring people in and then how do you get those people to immediately invite a friend, right?
So like that's also something that's important like having a social functionality where you know that when you spend something whatever your CPI is it's actually considerably lower
28:38
because a certain percentage of users are bringing somebody else. Those two things kind of come together like what's the best hook to get somebody in?
Is it an ad? Is it a video on Tik Tok?
And then once you have them in, can you get X% to just share it? And then I would say your focus should just be on scaling
28:55
all of that content up and finding other distribution mechanisms and just spending your money primarily on like tests cuz then you'll basically you'll hit like a format that works. You'll hit like a specific ad that works and then you've also solved the productled growth problem of like getting people to
29:11
invite. So it's just like that's the where the flywheel really kicks off.
That's how I would do it. I just spend it on getting more users in.
Super actionable. Love it.
Thanks so much Hunter. This is amazing having you.
super tactical. I learned a lot.
A lot of wisdom, too. Just thinking about what's working and what could work in
29:26
the future. I feel like I'm 40 years old.
There's a lot of apps like I tweeted recently. There's a test flight graveyard.
So, there's a lot more than what I showed you here that just never even made it. It's a fun industry because you're constantly able to take L's and like just redo it again.
Thanks so much. Yeah, we'll close it out here.
29:42
My pleasure, man. This was great.
I do more of these pie interviews with Super Wall, so check out the channel. You'll see some more